Boy Scouts discriminate again
January 31st, 2009 by Wulf
My oldest son turned eight last year. That means he’s old enough for cub scouts. I learned a lot through scouting (though I rebelled against it at times because I was forced to go), and was hoping Connor would want to join. My sister was kind enough to take him to a cub scout den meeting with her son, and he had a blast. I was excited, my son was excited to join scouting, so I went a few days later to pick up his Wolf materials.
I was reading through the materials so I could be an engaged parent–it’s been a long time since I was a scout. That’s when I got to the cub scout promise:
Cub Scout Promise
I, (say your name), promise
to DO MY BEST
To do my DUTY to GOD
And my Country
To HELP other people, and
To OBEY the LAW of the Pack
Now the lawyer in me starts thinking, “Okay, he can promise that because he has no duty to the Christian god.” But then underneath, in the book, it has an explanation of the promise. The very first sentence states,
“Duty to God means putting God first . . .”
I belong to a nonmainstream, non-Christian faith. My wife is an Agnostic. We decided long ago we’d let our sons come to their faith on their own, if ever (preferable when he’s old enough to think critically). I can’t ask him to make that promise. So I told him I didn’t think it would be a good idea for him to join Cub Scouts. He was pretty upset and asked why, so I explained the promise and told him I didn’t know whether he believed in the Christian god or not. He said he didn’t know either.
So I asked him if he wanted to join Cub Scouts if it meant making a promise like that. He said, “I probably shouldn’t make a promise if I don’t know if I can keep it.” I was so proud of him at that moment that I could burst. And he immediately calmed down, no fit. It was his choice. Then he floored me even more.
“I should probably explain it to [my cousin who took me to Cub Scouts], huh,” he said.
“I can explain it to his mother if you’d rather.”
“No, I think I should do it myself.”
Now I ask you, isn’t that exactly the kind of boy the Cub Scouts should be looking for? Yet because of religiously exclusive language in the “Cub Scout Promise,” he wouldn’t be able to join without betraying the Cub Scouts basic principle of Honesty. Kind of a catch 22.
I know that the Cub Scouts are a private Christian organization, but is such exclusion really all that Christian? As a private religious organize, I respect its right to choose it’s policies. Interference would violate its free exercise of religion, just as forcing them to let in homosexuals would have been. But I do hope that they will someday voluntarily change this exclusionary language–preferably before my son turns 12. There’s no organization out there like the BSA to teach boys practical life skills and ethical values. . . .
-Wulf
Boy Scout Slogan
Do a Good Turn Daily!
UPDATE
It has come to my attention that some of you may be under the mistaken impression that I am an atheist, and that I prevented my son from joining cub scouts because it conflicted with my beliefs. Below is a response to one such question sent via email. I hope it explains things better.
I’m not an atheist, nor is anyone in my family. I believe in a supreme being, who created the universe, and takes on many aspects depending on with whom s/he is interacting with. That’s an oversimplification, but it suffices for now.
If I were making the decision to make the promise for myself, I might be able to do so, since I have a very special relationship with the Divine. Still, God (with a capital G) tends to connote the Judeo/Christian/Islamic god, and would still make me uncomfortable. I would be even more uncomfortable swearing to put the Divine first–my family always comes first. But I am confident that my god would never require that of me (don’t get me started on the sick myth of Abraham and Isaac).
But the main point is that I am not the one making the promise. [My son and my wife] are agnostics right now. That means they don’t know if god(s) exist(s). Once [my son] determines the issue for himself, then he can wrestle with the issue himself (like I have in the paragraph above). As it is, he can’t even get that far. Regardless of whether the God means the Judeo/Christian/Islamic god, he hasn’t even decided if any gods exists (nor should he until he is able to think critically). Much less can he decide whether to “put god first” in front of his family. I will not ask him to find god just so he can join scouts, and will not pressure him to seek the answers that are so crucial for a meaningful spiritual existence.
Right now, he can’t make that Promise in any meaningful way. And I have an enormous amount of respect for him for realizing that, and for not wanting to make a promise when he doesn’t know if he can keep it. In the meantime, I’m looking for alternatives to scouting that won’t make him make such a promise.
Update #2
Apparently, I am not the only one with this problem.
http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/layer02/aaic/001121901.html
http://atheists.org/blog/index.php/2009/01/06/boy-scouts-denied-again
C’mon! Isn’t the whole definition of God whatever you put first? Which is why the commandment is “Thou shalt have no other god before me?” The Boy Scouts aren’t trying to make you worship the Christian god. They just want you to recognize there’s something greater than you out there. Just talk to your son about making “good choices” or whatever a priority. Your gonna have to pay for counseling if you keep this up!
My responses are in italics below
-Wulf
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Shelli wrote:
Comment:
Your gonna have to pay for counseling if you keep this up!
What, exactly, is going to cause my kids to need therapy? Is it my refusal to cram religion down their throats from birth or my emphasis on teaching them the importance of keeping their word? I know, it must me my allowing them to make their own decisions.
C’mon! Isn’t the whole definition of God whatever you put first?
That’s a strange definition of “god.” If it were accurate, my “god” would be my family, but my religion and my family are quite separate (except that my religion emphasizes the importance of family). It’s also clear from the explanation in the Wolf Cub Handbook that that is not the definition they intend either. I don’t buy this definition for a second. That’s just a trite way for Christians to excuse themselves for forcing their religion on non-Christians in the public sphere–such as when my son is psychologically coerced into singing “God Bless America” at a public school assembly.
Which is why the commandment is “Thou shalt have no other god before me?”
This just reinforces that your definition is a Judeo-Christian definition and doesn’t apply to other faiths. The Ten Commandments are not a great tool to show me that your definition crosses faiths. It’s like trying to convince a physicist that the Theory of Relativity is wrong by quoting Shakespeare to him.
The Boy Scouts aren’t trying to make you worship the Christian god. They just want you to recognize there’s something greater than you out there. Just talk to your son about making “good choices” or whatever a priority.
Which I do, outside of a religious context. I’d like to think that my teachings about “good choices” are the reason he decided that keeping his word was more important than having fund with other 8-year-olds. But if you read the explanation of the Promise in the Wolf Cub Handbook (have you?) you’ll see that it is pretty clear that they are making Deism, if not Christianity, a prerequisite to membership. As a private organization, they can do that–as long as they realize it excludes many otherwise morally upright boys.
I updated my post with an explanation I had to send to my sister explaining that I am not an Atheist, nor do I object to the promise because it violates *my* religious beliefs. If you want to better understand my position on this, please read the update.
Maybe you are “cramming” your own form of non-religion down him. Why not explain to him what you believe God is, what other people believe God is, and give him some options? Instead you say “Son, you are blind so I’m not going to tell you about the Sun.” Wouldn’t it be just as “good” to explain to him what you think God is, or could be, and see if he wants to try being a cub scout while determining what HE thinks God is? Why would it hurt him to do his “duty to God” and put “God first” while trying to figure out who and what God is? God could be a simple as an idea, or a feeling. Why not let him experience the scouting program as part of his religious education? He has shown you that he is mature enough to digest the views of the scouting program objectively. They didn’t put their own definition of God in the boy scout pledge, they didn’t even say “Christian God”…Christians can’t even agree on the same God! Give him a God he is comfortable with and let him pledge duty to him. Why is that so bad? Is it against the law to change his mind later? The Boy Scout police will come after him?
Who is discriminating here? Is it MANDATORY that he say the pledge and mean it? They won’t let him attend if he doesn’t? An eight-year-old? Really? Will they ask him the definition of God? Or are you looking for a reason to be offended…
For some reason, the “Update” and Shelli’s comment were on another page and I didn’t see it. You pretty much answered my questions…but I don’t put the gravity on the boy scout pledge that you do. It’s just a pledge - if your “God” puts family first then by putting God first, you ARE putting family first. I would just say the pledge and make God anything I wanted him to be…based on your beliefs, you could do that too. You’re needlessly keeping [your son] from a good experience.
How on Earth can you say “it’s just a pledge.” Pledge means promise, and I take promises very seriously–from promises to my kids to my wedding vows. I feel it’s important to keep your word, and I’m very glad my son does too.
You still seem to misunderstand the issue. It’s not a question of whether my god puts family first, or whether the pledge would violate my spiritual beliefs. I think it’s hard for most Christians to understand this because most of them indoctrinate their children very young.
And I’m not cramming anything down his throat–religion, nonreligion or irreligion. He has asked me questions about gods, and my response tends to start with, “well, no one knows for sure, but my personal beliefs are . . . .” I have let him go to the temple with my oldest sister.
Still, I personally feel that eight-year-olds tend to accept whatever an authority figure tells them, and I’d prefer that he not get a formal religious instruction until he can think more critically (perhaps around 12), and only if he seeks it out himself. Spiritual answers tend to be more meaningful if you work at them, and seek them for the right reasons. I’m not going to encourage him to find those answers now just so he can learn to tie knots and make pancakes.
Finally, I’m not “needlessly keeping him” from anything. I gave him a choice and he made it. Again, I’m thrilled that keeping his word means that much to him.
-Wulf
You’re right. I’m glad you’re teaching him correct principles. Good for [your son] for picking up on the gravity his Dad put on him making a promise. Maybe you could teach him how to have a relationship with the Divine…then maybe when he CAN think more critically he will want to seek out religious answers. I think it is dichotomous (my own form of the word) to think he is old enough to choose whether to say the pledge but too young to think critically.
Did you ever check to see if he was required to say the pledge in order to attend pack meetings?
He can think critically to a point. But I think that if I started teaching him to “Have a relationship with the Divine” like the one I have, he will go along with it to please me. I feel like I have a more fulfilling spiritual life because I came to my beliefs on my own. I want that same feeling for my son. When he’s ready to explore his spiritual side, he’ll let me know.
I can’t deny that part of my approach to this is influenced by my bitterness at my parents’ indoctrination of me while I was young, and the agony of trying to break away from a spiritual path that just didn’t work for me. If I can spare Connor that pain, I will. I think that avoiding any kind of pressure or influence on his religious beliefs is a good way to do that. Far better to let him know that I am there to answer any questions than to tell him he should believe a certain way.
You don’t have to say the promise to attend, but it’s required to advance from Bobcat to Wolf. There’s no point in attending if you can’t advance.